I’m using Apple Maps for the app that I’m developing now.
The alternative would not have been Google Maps. It would have been MapBox.
Google Maps will give app developers like me severe sticker shock. I watched a friend of mine get it in the shorts (forcing him to switch to MapBox). After watching that, I decided that I will never depend on Google services as a linchpin technology. In fact, it simply hardened my resolve to avoid third-party dependence, wherever possible.
When I started the project I’m working on now, Apple Maps had already grown to cover all of the US, albeit not as well as Google Maps. I’ve been seeing Apple Maps cars driving around here, for at least a couple of years.
I’m pretty confident that relying on Apple Maps was not a mistake.
> I’m using Apple Maps for the app that I’m developing now. The alternative would not have been Google Maps. It would have been MapBox.
It's easy to make a theoretical stance like this, but Apple Maps and Google Maps are free in an iOS app, but MapBox is not. If you were forced to switch off Apple Maps for some reason, it seems likely the free option would win out.
> it simply hardened my resolve to avoid third-party dependence, wherever possible
all of these libraries are third-party dependencies...
> Google Maps will give app developers like me severe sticker shock
If we're talking just about the javascript API, in my experience if you're using more than just a very local map, people always have very wishful thinking about MapBox pricing and it usually ends up almost the same as Google Maps pricing. This isn't an accident, they need to be a better priced alternative but they also need to pay the bills. The pull to switch at that point would be if you need better address lookup or something.
If you are doing a very local map (like the equivalent of a few tiles for your average user), you're often better off just rolling your own tile server. People are often surprised how easy it is.
> Apple Maps and Google Maps are free in an iOS app
Google API is not free. It would be at least a 4-digit cost per month. I think that my friend was hit with a $1,500/mo nut. Google changed terms (back when they started demanding that all users of the API give credit card numbers). His app is fairly popular, and he'd need to pay them for the SDK.
> all of these libraries are third-party dependencies...
I've been relying on Apple's toolkits since 1986. They've pulled a couple of stunts (OpenDoc, anyone?), but they have been a reliable partner, for the most part.
> If we're talking just about the javascript API
I don't do JS. I do native Swift. It would require embedding their API. My friend did that, and it was far more cost-effective. Lot less than Google (he sells his app for $0.99, and it's not popular enough to do much more than pay for itself). MapBox is quite nice. His app is native ObjC. He's had it out for quite a while. He originally started with Google's API, as that was the only one that offered the particular services he needed.
Most of the stuff I write is free, open-source. I could probably get Google to let us use it for free (we're a 501(c)(3)), but I've already seen them turn the screws once, and I'm in no mind to set myself up for something like them deciding that we could give them a tithe.
Also, I have had some ... issues ... with third-party libraries. I'm quite particular about the Quality of my work, and I find that not too many others share my passion.
He told me that his use case was definitely NOT free.
I also know that Apple Maps could not give him the specializations he was looking for. He is an experienced, rational engineer, and would not have acted in an alarmist manner. He really liked the Google API. Google has done a wonderful job with their map product, but I also know that it's a "gateway drug."
I won't link to his app, because it can get crazy, with all the anti-Apple stuff. I won't drag him into the fray.
As ever, worth noting that self-hosting maps can be a very viable option.
You can generate OSM-derived vector tiles for the whole world for €15, using tilemaker running on Scaleway bare metal. It'd cost more like ~€100 to run it on AWS but still very doable.
That gives you a big sqlite database file (.mbtiles) to host wherever you want. Use Maplibre, the open-source fork of Mapbox GL, in your app or site.
Yeah, but I have seen MapBox in action in a number of apps, and have yet to see one native app, delivered with here.com. As it is, I even decided against using MapBox.
I'd need to see it in use a bit more, before relying on it for my users. Most of what I do is free, or low-cost work, aimed at folks in need. In some cases, lives depend on my work, and there's little money or glory.
That Google "squeal piggy!" thing I witnessed was quite sobering.
People seem to be quite sanguine about putting all their eggs into one basket. I guess that's kind of necessary, these days, but we need to be careful about choosing baskets.
I'm kind of a crusty, scarred ol' bastard. Takes more than a pretty Web site to get me on board, and I don't bring buckets of money with me, so I'm just not that attractive.
> Yeah, but I have seen MapBox in action in a number of apps, and have yet to see one native app, delivered with here.com.
Makes sense. I encountered here.com once in a corporate setting, and was surprised that it was actually decent (at the time), but no further experience with it either. It doesn't seem to have a strong brand outside big corp.
Even if Apple Maps doesn't have as much data as Google, the experience is so much better. Makes a lot of sense that Google is copying it as per the article.
Whenever I use Google Maps, it constantly harasses me about how there's a slowdown ahead, puts a little tray across the bottom of the screen hiding the information I care about, with no way to get rid of it except tapping and other nonsense. I searched throughout the settings and can't find anyway to turn off all these annoying pop ups it has. Someone needs to write an ad blocker for it.
Apple Maps not only doesn't constantly harass me with meaningless notifications I can't dismiss without taking my hands off the wheel, it also shows traffic lights, and the voice over instructions include them as well. With Google I often turn too early or too late because it isn't very clear exactly when to turn. With Apple Maps that happens a lot less because Siri will flat out tell you, turn at this light, turn at the next light, etc..
I've been recently trying out the new Apple maps' turn by turn navigation. Some of the directions are almost human like - "Take a left at next traffic light" Must say makes driving directions easier to follow compared to take a left on X street, when I can't even see what X street is at night.
Problem is that when I'm driving I'm not paying attention to businesses around me. I've gotten a direction once like take left at Starbucks, how far is the starbucks away, is it the next left or the one after that? Now I need to glance for a Starbucks while I'm driving?
200 yards = 182 meters. This definitely seems like an issue, hope you had the chance to report it. My expectation from maps is generally a resolution of about 10m.
You often get an instruction like "use the left 2 lanes". But where you are when the instruction is given, the leftmost lane might be a forced early left turn. If you're unfamiliar with the location, this requires a lot of extra cognitive load, vs simply not giving that specificity at all.
As well, traffic conditions change rapidly and the lane by lane doesn't account for that.
In some easier situations, it's great, but it's a negative in more complex situations.
I’ve found their reporting mechanism for incorrect directions to be very easy to use and that they are responsive to the suggestions. Please leave a marker for the next poor soul who’d get snared in that trap!
> Perhaps the most noticeable difference between Apple’s old and new maps is all of the vegetation detail Apple has added.
I really don't understand the way they blend forests and fields together. It used to be that forests and grasslands were marked green and agricultural land was white, so you could easily tell the difference. Now they are the same, or nearly the same, color while the difference in landscape is massive. To actually tell the difference now you have to switch to the satellite map.
I don't see how this is adding more detail. If anything it's providing less information.
I still don't understand why Apple map is so bad compared to OpenStreetMap given that they contribute a lot to it (they are even the biggest company contributor to OSM). There must be a reason, legal or something, but why don't they just use OSM as a default for places they didn't map by themselves?
I suspect they want to review and check every inch of OSM in an area before they import it.
Just incase someone has hidden something extremely offensive within the dataset, and deliberately mutilated the maps to create funny images etc
Google had a few very public cases of people using their open contribution process to embed images of Android, penises and hate symbols into their maps. All this created a huge about of negative PR, and eventually resulted in the contributions system being shutdown.
> I suspect they want to review and check every inch of OSM in an area before they import it.
Facebook does the same with OpenStreetMap data. With a combination of automated tools and team of manual reviewers they were months behind with updates to allow error detection.
"Some of these contributions may have intentional and unintentional edits that are incompatible with our use cases. Our mapping teams work to scrub these contributions for consistency and quality. In the course of this work, we also build additional tools and technologies on top of OSM to increase mapping speed, and more importantly, drive a higher level of detail, quality and accuracy on the map." https://daylightmap.org/
Neither Apple nor Google check to ensure that roads actually exist. Both have imported USGS maps that include non-public roads which are gated shut to the public.
Example: 37.475,-121.753
Both Google Maps and Apple Maps will cheerfully give you directions to this location which is less than 15 miles from their respective headquarters. You can't get there.
I think it might be because Apple will have to give visible attribution to OpenStreetMaps, which may attract users towards it to the detriment of Apple maps.
They do use OpenStreetMaps data and give attribution to them as one of their sources. But if they were to only use OSM's data, people would cry foul that Apple maps is not giving them clear and visible attribution (for e.g. by adding a "OpenStreetMap" label on the map you are viewing in Apple Maps). Right now, except for maps source providers that legally require Apple to provide visible attribution somewhere in their UI, all attributions are tucked away somewhere in the internet - https://gspe21-ssl.ls.apple.com/html/attribution-199.html
Every time I've tried Apple Maps, I run into the same problem--it doesn't seem to predict your realtime location ahead by X feet to account for your speed and delay in GPS signal. Google Maps does this. The result is that on Apple Maps, your position is "behind" where you really are at the moment, and it's harder to make the turn. Google's tradeoff is that if you miss a turn, it will momentarily show your position as if you'd made the turn correctly. Perhaps this is a matter of preference, but I am much more successful at navigating while driving using Google Maps than with Apple Maps.
I've noticed the same thing. I do use Apple Maps in Carplay, but have learned to anticipate what's shown on-screen in-relation to where I'm actually located. Seems like it's certainly fixable, but I'm surprised it hasn't been addressed already given that two random strangers on the internet highlight that as one of the service's primary weaknesses.
I have never used Android or iOS car integrations. I am speaking from using GPS while driving, so I meant the app’s ability to calculate your speed based on GPS.
I’m on the big island of Hawaii and Apple Maps is basically useless. I can’t find my hostel by name. I also can’t find it by address. It’s just very bad.
This is actually somewhat surprising given that Hawaii was one of the first states to get surveyed directly by Apple. Is it a recent address? And have you tried reporting it? My personal experience is Apple is pretty responsive to (all) Maps reports.
Meanwhile, in other parts of the world it cannot even get the shape of land and country borders right.
Here's an example on the border of Montenegro and Albania: https://imgur.com/a/B3aVJYH
Currently showing a "this page cannot load Google Maps correctly". I guess they ran out of free views? (But also underscoring quite effectively the other people saying "I won't build on Google Maps")
Is this for Apple's data collaboration with OpenStreetMaps? I don't get it — both countries seem have very good coverage in OSM, but not in Apple Maps.
>it cannot even get the shape of land and country borders right
Neither can Google.
>From Pakistan, Kashmir appears disputed while from India, it appears as a part of India, the Post report said, adding that "Google Maps changes disputed borders based on what country you search from".
It's because the laws of many countries dictate that any map available to their citizens cannot deviate from the official map that highlights the boundaries with other foreign countries. Google Maps (as well as any other private or public company) can be banned if it doesn't comply.
This article is from last year but the latest iOS 15 updates show how mature Apple maps has become (see https://www.macrumors.com/guide/ios-15-maps/). It’s not just at parity but actually better than Google maps. It has beautiful rendering and easy readability, and I haven’t encountered odd routing issues for a couple years now. The added privacy is a welcome bonus. The only thing missing is a way to report police presence like on Waze.
I’ve been impressed by Apple’s pace and wish there was more I could read about their engineering and product journey for the maps product.
While the maps themselves are excellent, it's a shame you lose out on Google's frankly ridiculous business data. I've had Apple Maps route me to a café that was temporarily closed, while Google Maps knew it was closed, for example.
I find I prefer to use Apple Maps for driving because it's just a nicer experience (though that's largely due to having hooks in iOS that Google Maps is not allowed), but I still don't really trust it when walking around a city. I'm in the UK so I'm not sure if it's better in the US, but it's not there yet over here.
In my experience, Covid has screwed up everybody's data. Apple seems to pull from Foursquare or Yelp or something, but I've seen Google, Apple, Foursquare and Yelp all of the different, incorrect hours. I think some of them have added flags/fields for temporary hours because of it.
Apple and Yelp seem to make it really easy to give them new hours. You can either write them in or just take a photo of the hours and they'll do it. For Apple, you get an alert in about a week that the changes were posted.
Years ago, I noticed Yelp wasn't used much internationally. The well rated-places were often touristy. With Apple, I have noticed "food" won't have many good results in some countries. I feel like the same applies to Google, but since I don't primarily use it I'm not sure its fair to say that.
> it's a shame you lose out on Google's frankly ridiculous business data
In India, Apple Maps has compensated for this - they have purchased this data from JustDial.com ... However, Apple Maps still remains inferior to both Google Maps and HERE Maps due to lack of data. It's a Catch-22 for Apple as even if people want to use Apple Maps its poor user experience forces users back to its better competitor and without the users using it, it cannot improve itself. Google Maps is nearly unbeatable in India due to the sheer amount of data it collects every single day from Android Phones and "crowdsourcing" from its users has made it really good at routing - for e.g. in Bangalore's insane traffic, its algorithm is quite good in considering both shortest popular routes + traffic to suggest routes that will take the shortest time to reach a destination. HERE maps is quite good too and is quite popular in India because it allows its maps to be downloaded for offline use. (Google was forced to add this feature too. Apple Maps in India still doesn't have this feature).
I've had Apple Maps route me to a café that was temporarily closed, while Google Maps knew it was closed, for example
Both Apple and Google rely heavily on the business owners to self-report their hours.
In my company, we have one of our social media people assigned to this task. Each week he has to check all of our locations on both platforms to make sure the hours being displayed are correct.
Usually they are. Sometimes people will report a location closed because they're just mad about customer service, and he has to change it back. Sometimes our hours will change, and after he's changed them on Apple or Google, the hours will mysteriously revert to the old hours a week later.
The problem you encountered is a mindshare problem. Small businesses like cafes, and even some very large businesses, think Google=Internet. So they only update their information on Google.
COVID made this a lot worse because business owners closing their stores either temporarily or permanently don't really care that much about notifying Google or Apple. They have much more important things to worry about.
I think Google's correction workflow helps massively with keeping the data up to date.
I can submit a correction for a misplaced business or wrong opening hours, and it's live on the map within hours, but more often minutes. Recently I had to submit a correction to a typo in a business name to Apple Maps and it took over a week.
Can’t speak for elsewhere in the world, but I find Apple’s navigation quality to be at least on par with Google’s here in Canada. Its biggest deficiency for me now is its relatively poor point-of-interest data
It's not the UK, but in Hong Kong on iOS 15, Apple Maps now automatically taps you on the wrist (apple watch) right before it's time to get off the public bus at your stop. It is freakishly accurate.
It's a very nice feature. I'm not quite sure of what metric they're using. Some busses can show real-time locations, others they obviously dont have that info. Sometimes it will ping me a stop early (if the stops are close together?). I do wish there was a way to either stop directions on the phone, or put it in low power mode. It seems to eat my battery on long bus trips if its just sitting in my pocket. On car trips with directions I'm often charging the phone. On the bus or when walking I'm often not.
In practice, there are still some annoying wrinkles. It often assumes I boarded a bus when I'm not quite to the bus stop. So I have to tap and swipe a few times to go back, find out which platform or when the next bus arrives. If you have a moderate walk to or from the bus stop, the walking directions are frankly bad. I often quit and redo that part as only walking to get turn by turn. I know the watch has a much more limited screen, but I end up having to pull out my phone for some of those specific details like the platform or when the next bus is scheduled.
That might work for a bus out in the open, but GPS doesn't work well with a lot of nearby tall buildings, or for subways underground.
Maybe they are using GPS and silently failing in all other situations? My point is that it's nice when it works but could use some improvement on whatever method they're using.
This might be true if you're walking up a hill but its not true if you're trying to go to a specific place (restaurant/shop etc) with opening times via any mode of transport.
Apple Maps really look nice. But depending where you are the information can be shocking barren. Especially in Japan. They look really great but there is no labels, or anything. And if they are not as well double labeled (english and japanese).
They are amazing compared what crap we got back in 2012 or so when apple maps replaced google maps.
Speaking of Waze (which is originally an Israeli company, if you didn't know):
I was in Tel Aviv in 2017 in a rental car at Ben Gurion airport, trying to find the rental car return. The signs all pointed me one way, and Google Maps agreed. I followed them, and got to a place where Google said "your destination is on the left."
I cursed "no, it f&cking isn't!" After much driving around and stopping to ask people, I finally found it. The rental car company had given me a sheet of paper saying where it really was, which I had neglected to look at (never having had a problem before).
“Easy readability” on this point I find myself wishing there was a way to make street names and fonts in general bigger in Apple Maps. Also green font on green backgrounds, why ? In terms of planning there is still no way to add multiple routes along the way which would be a nice addition.
A lot of Apple products have bad font issues, and Apple Maps is among the worst. There's simply no way anyone at Apple has checked contrast or font size for accessibility in Apple Maps.
Once the road labels were so frustratingly small that I took a screenshot and opened it in Photoshop just to see how small it was. One label was 4px. Another was 6px. How is anyone supposed to read a six pixel tall word?
I'd love to use Apple maps for driving directions, but I just can't get used to its mostly-overhead navigation view. I regularly take wrong turnings when following Apple Maps, which almost never happens with Google Maps or TomTom.
I recently started using Apple Maps in my car using CarPlay and just pleasantly surprised with some nice features as showing STOP and SIGNAL signs on the map so I know when to stop way beforehand in my mind rather than straining my eyes to look for those signs when I get closer to them. Makes a huge difference when you are tired and can not focus 100% when driving.
Why is that? As far as I can imagine, people using Apple maps, especially those requiring accessibility features, will be using the app on their phone.
Since this 2020 post, Apple's home grown map data has extended to all of the US and it's territories, Canada, Ireland, The U.K., Spain, Portugal, and Italy.
I discovered that Google Maps is consuming a huge amount of data, several GB during my last vacation, nearly depleting my contingent. How does Apple Maps compare?
I still don't get it. Apple is a company people cheer for, yet it continues to accrue substantial and dangerous power.
They don't let you repair devices, install your own software, or run your business unfettered. They spy on your files. They coddle and report to authoritarian governments.
This monopoly is lauded and praised as it continues to get bigger and encompass everything one does.
You're not wrong, but you're making the classic Hacker News mistake by assuming that the average person gives even the slightest crap about any of that stuff—or if they do, that they are directly affected by it.
Apple makes (mostly, with some fairly large asterisks attached) reliable devices, with all the software most people want to run. Most people do not sell apps and therefore are not familiar with the bullshit that is App Store policy. And many of their customers are based in the west, where their stance on privacy at least _seems_ substantially better than their big tech alternatives. For those based in China, coddling with an authoritarian government is just business as usual.
The most important factor to most people, myself included for the most part, is that they make devices people enjoy using.
Brand and personal investment of time and money in that brand means people will defend their investment.
It's why you can detect so much anger and pain in anti apple threads, because people's personalities are wrapped up with the brand.
A consumer doesn't just get one apple device, or just use one apple app, they buy the watch, phone, desktop, laptop, subscriptions, walled garden store, etc, and it works. It's a family which is hard to leave because you like it there.
I really can’t criticize Apple for making an ecosystem (walled garden) of devices and services that people genuinely enjoy being in. I just lament that there really is no other comparable parallel ecosystem to compete with them, particularly from open source vendors.
First, I don't think your comment is relevant to this discussion, but I guess that has never stopped anyone on HN. People complain about Apple maps, and the article is about how much work Apple is doing to improve their maps.
As to many of your other points, they are just wrong. I do repair my own devices, I do install my own software and I do run my business unfettered. I can't speak for others, but your assertion is not consistent with my own experience.
Which files do they "spy" on? They do offer on-device services like automatic photo tagging, rule based email filtering, etc. I can use those or not. I can grep and search my files, so I guess Apple (the OS) is "looking" at my files. Is that different than any OS? Basically any OS vendor has access to your files. You either trust it or you don't. Apple's business model is not built on selling my data to advertisers so I choose to trust them. You are welcome to make another choice.
As far as coddling to authoritarian governments, yes they follow the laws of the countries they operate in. So do any other companies that operate in those countries. That stinks, but that is the reality. Companies can either abandon markets or follow local laws. Which of these is the long term good? Lots of valid arguments both ways, but there can be no argument on one point. Operating in country X requires following the laws of country X.
Look, they are no saints, I get that. But they build great devices that do everything I want them to do. Of course there are people that have bad experiences, but overall Apple's customer satisfaction numbers are extremely high and people keep buying their devices. That's not an opinion.
To your central point, yes, as Apple offers more services that I find useful they do accrue more power. Which large companies that offer useful services do not accrue associated power? I choose to align with the company whose business model is not built upon selling me and my data to third parties. Eyes wide open. There are other good choices and I am happy for other people to make different choices. I don't feel pain for them.
I don't understand why you focus on apple. The problem is accros the entire mobile space, the frightening thing is not the power of apple, it's the fact that _alternatives are not much better_
Yeah, it's extremely frustrating. It's like everyone's efforts to preserve our freedoms and control don't matter. All progress is undone because Apple's offerings are just that much more comfortable. It's a constant uphill battle against billion dollar companies who are always light years ahead of us in terms of software and strategy.
> continues to accrue substantial and dangerous power.
> They coddle and report to authoritarian governments.
There's an interesting tension here. One strand of complaint is "Apple is too powerful", and the other is "Apple isn't ignoring laws".
If you're worried about the accrual of power to megacorporations, maybe you'd not like for them to be picking and choosing what laws they'll obey based on their own whims?
I have never needed to repair an Apple device, because they work well for the duration of their lifetime in my experience. When I have occasionally needed repairs, Apple does a fine job of servicing my product for a reasonable price. I can install every piece of software that I want on my Mac, and every business/startup I've worked at has used Macs as the default hardware so I'm not so sure about your "they prevent you from running your business unfettered" claim either.
tl;dr - the stuff you're worried about is probably moot to the average consumer, which is why Apple continues to make sales.
The alternative would not have been Google Maps. It would have been MapBox.
Google Maps will give app developers like me severe sticker shock. I watched a friend of mine get it in the shorts (forcing him to switch to MapBox). After watching that, I decided that I will never depend on Google services as a linchpin technology. In fact, it simply hardened my resolve to avoid third-party dependence, wherever possible.
When I started the project I’m working on now, Apple Maps had already grown to cover all of the US, albeit not as well as Google Maps. I’ve been seeing Apple Maps cars driving around here, for at least a couple of years.
I’m pretty confident that relying on Apple Maps was not a mistake.