One wonders about the wisdom of treating any interaction with an adult as being tantamount to asking for sexual exploitation while simultaneously dumping kids in a youth culture which says that sex is the best thing that everyone except them is having.
I had a very fortunate upbringing in a lot of ways, but I think I talked to maybe three adults who were not parents, teachers, or family in an eight year period. That sort of warps one's perceptions on things.
One wonders about the wisdom of treating any interaction with an adult as being tantamount to asking for sexual exploitation... but I think I talked to maybe three adults who were not parents, teachers, or family in an eight year period.
Did your family subscribe to any specific religion or something that would lead to this behavior? I just had never heard of something like this. Although I guess if the age span is 0-8 there's really not that many adults to interact with who aren't family or teachers. It's not like you're going to work or having lunch dates. And it's not like some random 32 year old is going to come over to just hang out. But still, it seems odd to even think that either you were being specifically shielded or you thought you were.
At age 8, or even 10, I never though, "I wish I could talk to more adults". If anything, I probably would've like to talk to fewer adults. :-)
We were a middle-class(-ish) Catholic family in the suburbs. I think alienation from the larger community is not that abnormal of an experience these days.
For example, if you read books or watch TV from the fifties, you might have a twelve year old boy with a friendship with a man in the neighborhood, perhaps in the context of sharing their common interest in carpentry or fence-painting, and doing totally innocuous things like having iced tea together during summer. Are you of the impression that remains normal behavior today?
I would be scared out of my wits if a neighborhood kid took a shine on me and started coming over to my house to say hello. That's one worried phone call from mom away from my life being ruined.
I think alienation from the larger community is not that abnormal of an experience these days.
That's quite possibly true. Maybe the plight of suburbia. While I agree that adult/child hanging out is not common, I don't think it ever was all that common. I can't imagine I'd have any reason to talk to most children. It's not that I'm afraid of a phone call, but I just don't think it would be very interesting to me.
At best I think you find that one adult who you can relate to in some offbeat way. Maybe painting fences, as you suggest. But still that just raises your number of adults to 4. It's just not common that a child will associate freely, and w/o supervision, with 150 random adults in their childhood.
That is your experience. Hardly the problem we all have. Do you not have uncles, did they not come for dinner, what of aunties, and did you never go to your friends house where you would meet their parents, etc.
I do not think anyone isolates kids or teenagers. I think, instead, the media attempts to portray such a picture so as to sell more papers.
Regarding your latter comment, in a world where you do not mix even with the seventh graders or the fifth graders if you are in the sixth grade, it would be quite strange indeed if you were "hanging out" with a 40 year old, or 30 year old, in "friendship" basis both for the youngster and for the adult. Moreover, I do not think it ever was seen as "normal" not because of any implications but because there would be little in common not least because a teenager thinks and is preoccupied by entirely different things from an adult.
Here's some more anecdotal evidence from my personal experience that "hanging out with a 30 year old" in sixth grade is not always bad, and shouldn't always be considered strange.
I grew up in a small middle class neighborhood in a small town and was fortunate in that my dad went to one of the best engineering schools in the country. From ages 6 to 14, two of his friends taught me more about business and science than any kid can hope for, and I had a ball learning it.
The first was a small town shopkeeper who was our neighbor. Initially, I would go to his shop with my dad every Sunday and hang around and explore it for hours while they chatted. He would teach me bits and pieces about business more through example than words: treating customers and employees right, pricing products right, managing people etc. Eventually, I'd often go to his shop alone and hang out and sometimes he'd let me man the cash register for an hour or two. It was a huge responsibility and one that I was proud of. Many people today would consider a 8-14 year old going to a shop and hanging out with a 30 something shopkeeper alone weird, but I only benefited from this relationship. Obviously this was someone my parents knew and trusted, but I can't help but think these few years shaped my desires to be an entrepreneur and helped me along the way.
The second person was a guy who had a job building/fixing machinery at gas refineries who my dad went to school with. He was divorced early and never remarried, a recluse who liked to study and talk about physics and chemistry. He was also eccentric and (what I recognized later as) a consummate geek: generally shy but never shy about tearing apart bad/flawed arguments anyone made. He was also unfailingly fair about accepting defeat in arguments when he was wrong. In our small town, judging from the outside, I'd say most people would have called him a weirdo and they probably did. My parents trusted him though and I regularly hung out with him, often alone. He had a huge role to play in my interest in science and (what I hope is) my ability to never be shy about making my case, but to treat opponents fairly. Fun aside: this gentleman retired at 55 from his job with significant savings and went BACK to school for a Ph.D. in math, because he loves to learn.
NB: I do not have kids yet, and it is possible that some biological or cultural switch that goes on when I have children will change my perspective on this making me more protective. I hope it doesn't make me wary of all adults though.
It is unnatural that kids are segregated by age into "peer groups" - in school and outside school (like at lessons). What's evolutionarily normal is to have children who are surrounded by, and interact mostly, with adults, in a group where many of the people are your family. The adults bring you up to their level. The kids keep you at your current (their) level.
No wonder kids today are more and more emotionally & intellectually stunted. None of them are "the dumbest guy in the room" - because they interact almost exclusively with other kids their exact same age.
30 kids and 1 teacher… the 1 teacher is not enough of an influence to make the kids feel ashamed of being so immature.
I, for one, have thought it was clear from history that "teens" are made. I grew up with lots of responsibility and it was clear to me, even as a 10-year-old, how different that made me from the kids I went to school with. The having of the responsibility wasn't what made me different, but it obviously made me think and behave differently too.
IMO the only reason that upper middle class kids today -- who are the ones always studied -- don't develop the part of the brain that connects cause & effect, & prevents risk-taking, is because they are never allowed to have enough power to fuck up.
How can you learn that stupidity leads to crisis if you're never allowed to make your own decisions?
The brain is plastic, it changes based on what you learn. A child kept away from speech until he's 4 years old will be unable to learn to speak normally. A teenager kept away from responsibility & work of value will grow up to be...
But the "scientists" who do these studies make pronouncements about their studies, but they never say "Sheltered white upper-class kids with two parents have the following traits..." they say "Kids have the following traits..."
IMO the only reason that upper middle class kids today -- who are the ones always studied -- don't develop the part of the brain that connects cause & effect, & prevents risk-taking, is because they are never allowed to have enough power to fuck up.
This simply isn't consistent with those people who are given a lot of responsibility. Like those who leave home at 12 or so and go into the world on their own. You'd think they grow into the power brokers of this country, but instead they usually get the short end of the stick.
The US prison population is full of people who decided at an early age to shun their parents and branch out on their own. Although one thing I've noticed is that black people tend to think white people are really goofy -- even adults. Maybe while blacks are incarcerated at higher rates, they're actually more mature, on average.
In any case, having the shackles lifted (no adult supervision) doesn't seem to result in a better life.
There is an difference between taking responsebility for your own life and be left alone by your parents.
I'm currently 18 i didn't ever wanted to behave like an typical immature teenager. I think part of the reason is that my parents didn't disallow me anything. so they weren't my opponent, but a role model.
Straw man argument. I never said "stop supervising kids at 10 years old" or "12 year olds should leave home." Neither did I say that kids from impoverished homes fare better on cognitive tests. Ludicrous.
Not a strawman. But these are some of the few examples where teens effectively go into the adult world (in many cases acting as adults). And kids from impoverished homes often have to run the house. There aren't many controls. so I took some of the few that exist, as imperfect as they are.
The thing that is hard to reconcile is that the people who seem to be most lauded as successful have had the most supervised childhoods. Folks like Gates, Jobs, Obama, Clinton, etc... What they do share in common is that they break from the mold at about the cusp of traditional adulthood (around 18-21) -- not at age 13.
Of course it's a straw man argument. Again, I never said that the solution was to force children to fend for themselves from 12 years old, or your latest number, 13.
What I said was: "What's evolutionarily normal is to have children who are surrounded by, and interact mostly, with adults, in a group where many of the people are your family. The adults bring you up to their level."
And "How can you learn that stupidity leads to crisis if you're never allowed to make your own decisions?"
Children from impoverished backgrounds in the United States are raised, such as it is, with incredible differences compared to children of well-off parents. They have a "30 million word gap" in terms of words spoken to them. They are not asked questions that cause them to think. They do not receive adequate nutrition.
You can't compare a poor child whose parents ignored him with a middle class child whose parents let him make his own decisions, like whether or not to do his homework, go to bed at a reasonable hour, earn and spend his own money, pay for some of his own bills, prepare his own lunches & do his own laundry, make dinner for the rest of the family, clean his room or not, work at a meaningful apprenticeship, date who he wanted when he felt ready to date, get piercings or dye hair, wear what he wants, etc.
In short: you are a troll. I hope you are joking but if you don't realize that you are a troll, you seriously need to deepen your thinking on subjects because you're just flapping about on the surface of a topic but you think you're making waves.
In short: you are a troll. I hope you are joking but if you don't realize that you are a troll, you seriously need to deepen your thinking on subjects because you're just flapping about on the surface of a topic but you think you're making waves.
Thanks. I needed a tldr on that one. What you say may all be true. Hard for me to know because my brain hasn't fully formed since I wasn't allowed to do crack rocks and rob liquor stores in the evening with my friends.
In any case you can raise your children to be effectively parentless. That's your choice. Charlie Sheen gets paid better than most.
Well said. By defining teens, we have also inadvertently defined who they are not.
_How can you learn that stupidity leads to crisis if you're never allowed to make your own decisions?_
I don't agree with this. The whole thing about mixing with adults is the adults will tell the kids to avoid repeating the mistakes they made when they were young. The whole idea of "rebels without a cause" is based on the understanding that if they knew and internalized the knowledge, teens would be much more careful. By not taking teens into the adult tribe, the teens end up having to create their own tribes and culture.
I think I talked to maybe three adults who were not parents, teachers, or family in an eight year period.
Don't mean to pry, so feel free to ignore this, but how do you reckon not talking to more than 3 adults over a 8 year period is fortunate? I am genuinely interested, not being facetious.
I seem to be causing a lot of parsing errors this week: despite being extremely satisfied with my upbringing, I think the fact that I talked to only 3 adults in 8 years is a symptom of a problematic mindset which has negative effects in our society. Hermetically sealing off teenagers in a child's world, where they perpetually lack responsibility for anything or authority to do anything, is borked.
I deny the possibility of such a thing: I'm the professional communicator. If I get misunderstood then there was an opportunity for me to have phrased it better.
(Ditto for when Mrs. Smith thinks she was triple charged by The Googles for her software because she thinks one mail from me, one mail from Google, and one confirmation page counts as three charges. Not her fault -- my fault. I live and breathe e-commerce -- I should have made that more clear for someone who might only buy one thing online ever.)
> Ditto for when Mrs. Smith thinks she was triple charged by The Googles [...] I should have made that more clear for someone who might only buy one thing online ever.
An intriguing observation, how did you solve the problem?
Presumably by reassuring the customer, in bold font, on the confirmation page and in the email from him, both of which he controls, that they have only been charged once.
It is hard not to respect someone who treats their customers right AND treats fellow HN readers like customers, even when they are clearly in the wrong as I was.
I went to your profile and to bingocardcreator.com and appointmentreminder.org just to see how I may avail myself of such excellent service :) While I find myself not currently in the need for either product, I will be on the lookout for potential users for both.
My Dad dragged me along when visiting his friends (still does) when I was 10 and older (maybe 9). I was expected to behave, but I he kinda made sure I would be part of the conversation. I'm 40 now, and it was good training. It still scares me to get in front of a crowd, but that early interaction lets me do it and feel ok with small groups. I also don't freak when strangers come up to me and tell me their life story.
I had a very fortunate upbringing in a lot of ways, but I think I talked to maybe three adults who were not parents, teachers, or family in an eight year period. That sort of warps one's perceptions on things.