> there's really no reason to buy an apple laptop short of bragging
That seems like a simplistic view, and honestly, I'd figure you don't value much what the Mac delivers for me, mostly aesthetic and lack of tinkering. For instance, this Mac has a nice, large trackpad, and even high end laptops from other manufacturers tend to feel a bit clunky by comparison. I don't like fan noise, and the Air performs well for a fanless machine. With a Dell laptop, I still had problems with audio drivers and bluetooth devices--I just don't want to mess with that crap, at all, ever, and even from the manufacturer, I'm dealing with driver issues and bad configuration. I don't want the ability to de-crapify my PC with a fresh install of Windows, I want to open the box and not have an OS loaded with 3rd party crap, and that's not something you get with a PC.
I could probably go on for a while if I thought about it, but I don't even consider an Apple laptop anything to brag about. Generally, I'm tech savvy, but so far over it that I want an appliance machine. I find visible logos, products, and brand identities tacky, so bragging doesn't even enter into the equation. Visible Apple logo counts against the machine for me.
Windows, that is even in 2021 is still a clanky garbage.
Or Linux (any distro) that can't be installed on a newest hardware without any trouble at all (my relatively recent experience).
An even then you get an OS that you have to fix yourself for it to work and feel remotely nice. Yet without decent software in most cases outside of software development.
> Windows, that is even in 2021 is still a clanky garbage.
That's how I feel about macOS. It's for people who prioritize maximum animations over speed. For example, Finder is so slow compared to Windows Explorer. I love Windows. I love the customizability I love the speed, and even 15 years ago, there were 10X more software package for Windows than Mac.
I hear that macOS in recent years (after 2019?) even allows you to change the drab grey color of the menu bar? That's progress! Maybe by 2030, they will allow you to move the menu bar to a vertical orientation because that's how a lot of people prefer it; there's less vertical space than horizontal on most monitors. I honestly cannot understand how one can stand this stifling arrangement where you are told, "This is how it is, we know better".
>That's how I feel about macOS. It's for people who prioritize maximum animations over speed. For example, Finder is so slow compared to Windows Explorer. I love Windows. I love the customizability I love the speed, and even 15 years ago, there were 10X more software package for Windows than Mac.
Well, I don't have windows at hand, but Finder on my 2019 MPBr opens in much less than a second. Maybe Explorer opens 3 time faster but what's the point? Yes, I do prioritise speed over animations (linux is clearly a winner when it comes to animations by the way, macOS has just a few by default) when it really matters.
>there were 10X more software package for Windows than Mac.
Quality over quantity. I do agree that macOS lacks in a few departments but most of the time this is due to the closed-garden-like nature. Windows has things like Rufus and other tools because it has to play jack of all trades role. macOS is free of this. Like it or not.
>I love the customizability
This is understandable. I love this on linux too. Now I just don't have the time nor do I care rally. I'd prefer an OS that gives me 80% of what I need\want for 10% of my time rather than an OS that requires me to spend 50% of my time for all those tweaks.
This very discussion shows that two people can have differing opinions and thus, the choice should be left to the user. That is my main point.
Now, on a completely different note : a little bit more about the Vertical layout. Here are two articles with screenshots. It's awesome and now I can't go back to Horizontal taskbar ever.
Those articles are about the Windows Taskbar, not the menu I was talking about. This is what I was trying to clarify in my earlier question, when I asked "Do you mean the File/Edit/View menu bar, or the Dock?"
You insisted at the time that you meant the MENU bar, not the Dock, but now it appears that was incorrect.
This got a little long, but the tl;dr here is that you are confused on terms, and that the thing you say can't be moved on the Mac absolutely can be, and always could be.
--
One of the ways in which Win and MacOS are different is that, in MacOS, the File/Edit/View menu is always across the top of the screen, not bound to a specific window. I'm typing this in Firefox. I have several Firefox windows open, but NONE of them have a File menu. The menus for Firefox are across the top of my monitor.
In Windows, by contast, this menu is part of each window spawned by a given application. Most modern Windows programs use the Ribbon style menu, but some older or less-updated tools (e.g., SQL Server Management Studio) use the old-style. If I were doing this post on Firefox on Windows, each of my Firefox windows would have its own File/Edit/View menu.
In both Mac and Windows, this menu is always in this known position -- ie, on a Mac, it's across the top of the screen; on Windows, it's part of the top of each app window. It cannot be moved (to the best of my knowledge).
What YOU are talking about (and what those articles are talking about) is called the Taskbar in Windows. The analogous item in MacOS is the Dock. In both systems, the default location is the bottom of the screen, and in both systems it is possible to change this.
-> In Windows, the Taskbar can be placed on the bottom (default), either side, or across the top of the screen.
-> In MacOS, the Dock can be placed on either side or the bottom; you can't put it on the top of the screen because it would interfere with the aforementioned File/Edit/View menu.
--> In NEITHER OS is it possible to reposition the File/Edit/View menu.
You are right. I think the confusion arises because this Menu bar at the top mixes up the File/Edit/View menu to the left and the bluetooth and WiFi icons to the right. When you minimize all windows, what does this top bar show? How do you access the WiFi icon if all windows are minimized and this top bar is disappeared? Sorry, the last time I used a macOS was in 2017.
(Also, to the extreme left of this Menu bar is the Apple icon which can be used to access the "System Preferences". I guess this mixing of system-wide and program-specific menu options doesn't bother macOS folks.)
The key distinction here is that the MacOS menu bar isn't part of any Window, so it never disappears. Under MacOS, SOME application ALWAYS has focus, and whatever has focus shows its menu options there between the Apple menu and the right-hand icons (see below).
This is different from Windows. On a Mac, if you quit all your apps entirely, then the only remaining application is Finder, which has no real equivalent under Windows and cannot really be quit (you can restart it, tho, which is sometimes required).
Finder is how you navigate to files, but it's also the "shell" that controls how you interact with the computer -- it gives you the Dock, the menus, etc.
The area to the right, as you correctly surmise, is more analogous to the System Tray area on the right side of the Taskbar under Windows. That side doesn't change with app focus.
The Apple menu is always there, yes.
As for your final snide note, no, we're not bothered, because it's not something to be bothered by (besides, the same supposed "issue" exists in the System Tray on Windows, where background app and system level options often coexist).
Honestly, I think this thread probably MOSTLY shows that people who aren't terribly familiar with an OS should avoid making negative statements about it.
Well, I've been hacking on Linux for 8 years and been a maintainer for a few packages in AUR so what?
Even the way you present yourself here proves my point. This is not an OS for a comfortable life, it's a system for "hacking" (including the system itself).
If you still have passion and time for this - cool, most people don't want to spend their days on this.
> If you still have passion and time for this - cool, most people don't want to spend their days on this.
Just adding another counterpoint to "MacOs is awsome", anecdotal one, because we don't have any other.
My wife (she is not a hacker, just a computer science teacher) hates macos, she preferred Linux.
She used the system I setup for her, and I left it alone. She loved it.
MacOS is created for average Joe that just browses web and has no clue about anything else (like filesystem, directories). Example: Finder, that thingy can't show you full paths. If you try to get to your home directory to get some files you have to jump hoops.
I'm astonished that it is pushed as a developer OS, "because you have 'Linux' there". Sorry, that poor choice of basic utilities (some time ago bash there was ages old), that everyone has to use brew to get anything useful there.
Hardware is nice, but OS, is something that you just overwrite while installing Linux.
> Example: Finder, that thingy can't show you full paths
It can
> If you try to get to your home directory to get some files you have to jump hoops.
You don't
> Sorry, that poor choice of basic utilities (some time ago bash there was ages old), that everyone has to use brew to get anything useful there.
Ah yes, unlike the great linux where everyone is using apt-get/yum to install anything useful
Disclaimer: have used Macs as my primary developer machine since 2008 across 4 industries as both frontend and backend developer in half a dozen different programming languages.
I use a AMD Linux machine for work (softfware development).
Now I want to setup a second machine for audio production (Pro Tools and Ableton). For that I have the choice between Windows and Linux. Easy choice for me: M1 and MacOS, I certainly won't dabble with Windows.
You misunderstand - the MacOS software stack can only scale the UI to 1x,2x, 3x. So you can either use 4K display at 2X scaling, which gives you fullhd worth of realestate with Retina resolution. Or you can use it at 1x, ehich gives you tiny icons.
When you use 'looks like 2560/qHD', then the OS renders to a virtual surface, pretending it has a 5K screen attached. Then it downscales that image, and outputs it. The result is janky straign lines, blurry'er text, etc.
Modern Windows and Android render their UI natively in any resolution, and so you don't get issues. The caviat is that windows has 3 UI frameworks, and the oldest one is still found is some places, that's the one that doesn't scale.
People who can't afford Apple laptops (and gamers and certain other use cases) buy cheaper laptops. The brand appeal draws all the wealthy people towards Apple devices.
A lot of tech companies let their engineers choose between something like an X1 Carbon or a Macbook.
Lots of tech workers, in my experience, actually choose a Macbook for work because they really want to use a slick, luxury device and can't justify the cost for personal use... particularly given how many of them actually use their work laptops for personal tasks in off hours.
I think HN underestimates how many SWE's actually don't do much programming or use their personal computers for much at all. Particularly those with families.
> I think HN underestimates how many SWE's actually don't do much programming or use their personal computers for much at all. Particularly those with families.
This. I haven't owned personal computer for 10 years now, always use laptop I get from work.
> This. I haven't owned personal computer for 10 years now, always use laptop I get from work.
While a lot of folks do this, it’s such a terrible practice from your perspective (the company essentially owns your personal data) and the company’s (way higher risk). It’s not something I’d do, let alone brag about as if it’s a good thing, if I were you.
could it be that your corporate laptop is loaded with pile of monitoring, management and antivirus crapware? i have one, and it annoys the hell out of me.
Even if you don't look at refurbished, here in France, a MacBook Air is 1029€ brand new.
A comparable ThinkPad X1 Carbon is 2499€ minimum (that's the base model, with 256GB/8GB, but with a high-res screen).
A comparable Dell XPS 13 is 1699€ (same, cheapest one with a high-res screen you can buy; though you can't have the high-res screen without buying 512/16GB).
The ThinkPad T14 Gen 2 (successor to T490, supposed to be the cheap ThinkPad) starts at an astonishing 2156€ for 1080p. That's the very cheapest T14 you can buy, period. I could buy a T450 new for $700 when I was in the US! T14s starts at 2369€, again for 1080p. They keep selling old models so they can still hit lower price points.
The cheapest T14 you can buy with a high-res screen comes with 8GB ram, 128GB SSD (WTF?) and costs 3408€ (no, not a joke) or 3548€ if you want a graphics card.
HP starts at 1599€ for high-res HP Spectre.
Even if you forget the whole "premium laptop thing", I went on the Dell website and asked it to list all high-res 13" laptops: the cheapest is the 1699€ XPS. They don't made high-res Inspirons smaller than 15 inch. I believe the cheapest high-res laptop HP makes is that 1599€ Spectre, though their website is buggy. HP doesn't offer cheaper high-res devices except an 11" Chromebook.
These are all the official prices from the official manufacturer website.
Even on ok1.de, which has extremely cheap student prices, it's 1499€ for a high-res P14s, 2159€ for the cheapest high-res X1 Carbon, and 2,019€ for the cheapest high-res T14s. And then, we're comparing it to the 900€ student-price MacBook Air.
I've researched it for weeks, and there isn't a single premium Windows laptop that matches the MacBook Air on price.
Hm, the XPS 13 base model is a bit cheaper than the Air base model (in Austria), the screens are comparable (FHD+ is lower res than Retina, but then 4K is far more, so there is no direct comparison). I do have a 13" XPS and I can tell you, the basic screen (FHD in my case) is more than good enough.
But I was just blown away how expensive Lenovo has become. HP has always been expensive.
I'm also looking at the fresh Linux laptops, like the TUXEDO InfinityBook Pro 14, which are in the same price range and look very compelling, if you are OK with running Linux, that is (I am)...
Interesting, I just went back on the XPS website and the base, 1080p XPS 13 with 11th gen Intel is 1000€ for 512GB. I remember it being much more when I checked this morning. That does seem like a great price.
I think I found the issue: when you select the 13" from the products page, it shows 1000€, but if you select it, then switch the configurator to the 2-in-1 13", and then switch back the 11th gen 13", the base model with 256GB now costs 1400€. That website bug cost Dell a sale, since I would have definitely bought it instead of the M1 Air if I had seen the real price. What a shame!
Funnily enough also, when I configure it with 4K, then switch back to 1080p and switch every option back, it costs 1050€ instead of 1000€ for the exact same config.
